was david's mother a concubinedivinity 2 respec talents

For the flesh desires what is against the Spirit, and the Spirit desires what is against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you dont do what you want. Thats my problem. This doesnt mean that a baby daughter made her mother twice as unclean. 11:1415, The Disturbing Story of Davids Ten Concubines, https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/bitstream/handle/1774.2/37051/FLEMING-DISSERTATION-2013.pdf, Abigail: A Bible Woman with Beauty and Brains, The Propriety of Bible Women with Authority, Wealthy Women in the Roman World and in the First-Century Church, https://withmeagrepowers.wordpress.com/2016/09/18/genesis-19-has-lot-lost-the-plot/, https://margmowczko.com/a-sympathetic-look-at-bathsheba/, https://qonqordnxih-ltnk.blogspot.com/2021/01/lq.html#lqk, https://overcomersharvest.wordpress.com/tag/idiom-of-permission-in-the-bible/, https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Rom/9/18, 3 Formidable Bible Women with Strange Stories, Why 1 Timothy 2:12 shouldnt be used to ban women ministers, Philip Payne on Hairstyles vs. Head Coverings in Corinth. Women, and humanity as a whole, have been abused by masculine muscular strength and helped by it. Because of patriarchy, most leaders and influential people were men. And I appreciate your point that my concern with 2 Samuel 12:11 simply wasnt the authors concern. If we start picking and choosing on that basis, we might as well throw out the whole concept of scripture. I dont have a faith left to defend. When David's own daughter Tamar was raped by Amnon his son, she became a desolate woman. Biblical Hermeneutics Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for professors, theologians, and those interested in exegetical analysis of biblical texts. Israel wanted a king and the status of women went down in general with kings because of the harem. (Unfortunately, it is still regarded as an insult to call men and boys women or girls.) However, this trope was probably based on reality. I have a high view of scripture, but it was still written by humans (mostly men!). Warning: Mentions sexual violence against women. I note that Eve was helper to Adam as God is often helper (same word) to humanity. My point is about what God says about the ten concubines. Some of the Jebusites may have been in favor of Absalom becoming King and taking the concubines because these women were their own daughters and sisters. God gave us 1 command, ONE!!! The Bible refers to the sure mercies of David as a theme. The fact that God mentions something that will happen doesnt mean that it pleases Him. This is what Jesus was doing with Peter. In the Bible there was such a prevalent patriarchal society where woman basically had no rights, so this to me reflects those times. 2 Samuel 16:15, 20-23 CSB. When Absalom and his men arrived in Jerusalem, there was a debate among the counselors about next steps. Its been my observation a few times that we (a generic we) often make the biblical text, especially the Old Testament, work much harder than the original authors intended. The couple welcomed Zachary via a . I havent done any study of Ancient Hebrew, so I dont know the answer to this question, but if I was a Hebrew scholar, I would try to figure out what 2 Samuel 12:11 says. Hence, some biblical commentators simply reject all or part of 2 Sam 15:16 as the work of a glossator. NASB 1977 And Ahithophel said to Absalom, "Go in to your father's concubines, whom he has left to keep the house; then all Israel will hear that you have made yourself odious to your father. It is dangerous to look at the depravity of humanity and question Gods goodness. His zeal for God in challenging Goliath. This story has always been very disturbing to me as well, and I have thought through it many times. That was a choice I made to sin and a risk I decided to take. Its pretty clear the Jews did some editing over the years, but Jesus and the apostles still considered the OT as scripture. The idea of permission or allowance is presented in this work published back in 1701, and it comments on the ten concubines: Charles Le Cne, An essay for a new translation of the Bible, Part 1, translated into English by H. Ross (London 1701), 165. From a modern perspective, this seems like an unjust punishment of rape victims. The text doesnt say God allowed the concubines to be abused, it indicates that God himself organised for this to happen. I bet the God of traditional societies of the Middle East still justifies having women as chattels and as less than men. First Samuel 13:14 bothers me even more. After the death of Saul, according to the Bible, Abner was implicitly accused of having aspirations to the throne by taking Rizpah as his wife, resulting in a quarrel between . May 09, 2019 In the Bible, a concubine was a woman acquired by a man as a secondary wife. but Scripture lists her before Abigail because she is known as the mother of David's first son, Amnon. As divorced concubines of the king, would they have been able to find other husbands? And the king went out, and all the people after him. [10] By having sex with his fathers women he effectively upstaged David in his masculine prowess, which is a major qualification for a king. Hackett, 1 and 2 Samuel, 161. I had an abusive husband and my kids and I suffered many things we didnt deserve. Evil things happen because of a sin. Given a planet map, can plate tectonics be determined? This cannot be blamed upon God, but upon Davids lack of foresight, albeit he was having to make offhand decisions rapidly and on the fly, so we should show a little mercy in our judgement of him. He saw the man's greivous sins, mistakes and the struggles as recorded but he also saw into the heart of the man who could love like no other King before him. After David's death Solomon became king and Bathsheba accepted the title of Queen Mother - the most powerful position a woman could hold and the first woman in the history of Israel to hold this title. And because he was a man of blood, a murderer, he was not permitted to make Gods temple (1 Chron. I will take your wives and give them to another before your very eyes, this part seems to indicate Gods action in the matter as a necessary consequence for Davids sin. You did it secretly, but I will do this to you openly in the sight of all Israel.'" The ten concubines may have been local women which is why David may have left them in Jerusalem. When we come to the topic of evil we are tempted to firstly want the narrative to lend an ear to modern western (or Christian) sympathies. I mean, alliances or not, if its wrong its wrong. Through 2000 years of scripture, the FATHER, SON and SPIRIT reveal their tender heart and ways - to a vicious, malevolent, corrupt world. The Hebrew language uses idioms that are at times not understood when translated to another language. So also in this story, i usually do not come to conclusion neither i agree to others conclusionsbecause they are human so i thank you for your insight praise God for this i take it as ask the Lord to teach me and speak to me. We know that what he said was considered to be like someone asking about a word from God. Is it possible that God didnt cause it, but let it happen to punish David even more? The wages of sin is deathdeath takes many forms in this life, remember that. This idea, however, raises its own questions. The concubines would have been expecting coition but would not have expected it to be public. . This is the result. Still, its hard to compare what happened to the powerful Pharoah and his already hard heart with what happened to the powerless concubines. (See also footnote 4.). They werent even able to go back home but instead were forced to live within their own, guarded, community . BBC News. How well informed are the Russian public about the recent Wagner mutiny? Editor's note: The below article first appeared in David Corn's newsletter, Our Land. Indeed he ended up having 2 sons usurp him. Absolutely Hannah! Then Jesus brought something new still into a patriarchal society a huge leap forward which still has to be actualised fully. . I dont see any of it even as direct punishment by God so much as natural consequences of Davids actions. When he returned, he took the ten concubines and put them in a house to themselves. These are the words God says as recorded in 2 Samuel 12:11. Anyway, that is all I have to contribute to this feed. I often think of prophecy as a way of God demonstrating his faithfulness to us in that they go some way towards helping us prepare for the unpreparable. I am deeply troubled and grieved by what Absalom did to them on the rooftop of the palace. Wealthy Women in the Roman World and in the First-Century Church, Erin E. Fleming, The Politics of Sexuality in the Story of King David, especially pp. Thanks. He loves all race, ethnicity, and sex. Rizpah (riz'-pa, "coal", "hot stone") was the daughter of Aiah, and one of Saul 's concubines. Providing for your wife was a big deal (e.g. (As I understand it, this was one of the purity laws, which was to mark Israel off as a holy people.). That is not to say that sexual activity in public was anything other than abhorent but it needs to be understand that there were very different attitude to providing for the needs of the King; be they sexual or personal than we have in the twenty first century. That isnt really my point. It represented Davids authority. I continue to believe that God cares for the vulnerable, and he wants us to care for them too, but there are no easy answers when it comes to the disturbing story of Davids ten concubines. Did God stop the plague before or after David's offerings in 2 Samuel 24? To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. Why Were David's Ten Concubines Forced into the Status of Widowhood While David Still Lived? Im just now starting to really wonder and study about these things and am glad to have found your blog. If memory serves, in just about every part of the ancient world, a woman who had previously been married to a king (either in full, with the status of wife, or de facto in the lesser status of concubine) could not be remarried to anyone except another king. A book focused on the kings of Israel is going to focus on the kings and not much else. Seeming no big deal, but I imagine it ate away at Davids insides. They could no longer be his concubines as a woman that was intimate with the King could never be shared with another person. One of the stories that REALLY bothers me is God calling His Divine Council and asking for a lying spirit to cause the death of Ahab. Similar to event of the 2 year old and under baby boys slaughtered by Herod. But again back to Davids achievements, it is David that wants to build a great temple for the Lord to honor Him, but being a man of war, and having shed too much blood, God will not allow him to. I even hate squashing bugs. He founded the Judaean dynasty and united all the tribes of Israel under a single rule. I ask questions all the time. I do trust that God blessed them in ways to bring healing to their beings . Did Jonadab collude with Absalom to stage a coup?" What I find hardest to understand is why you feel that you need to be loyal to the Old Testament, or indeed to a Christian theology which continues to sideline and denigrate women. Many of the statements in the Hebrew Bible where God is recorded as saying he will do something bad may simply be the narrators way of explaining and emphasising events that later come to pass, a rhetorical device perhaps. This story is bad enough. Now, taking that back into the text, it is clearly a reflection of human depravity, unvarnished. I dont see any difference at all. The concubines themselves may not have any say, but they may have been in favor of their family political alliances. [7] Jo Ann Hackett, 1 and 2 Samuel in Womens Bible Commentary, Third Edition, Carol Newsom, Sharon Ringe, with Jacqueline Lapsley (eds) (Louisville, KY: Westminster John Knox Press, 2012), 150-163, 161. Absalom, like his father David, was trying to usurp the throne. We know that he turned against David. God was wise to know that when you keep doing what you have always done & expect different outcomes, it doesnt work. (I didnt say they were pure.). Was David serious about dying himself instead of his son Absalom in 2 Samuel 18:33? Because Absalom had intercourse with them, it would be detestable for David to do so: But if the second husband also turns against her and divorces her, or if he dies, the first husband may not marry her again, for she has been defiled. . Remember that! So it is colored by their emphases. David K. Li and Marlene Lenthang. And we also must remember that this life is so short and God, as the king of life, raises up in the next life what is lowly and powerless in this life. What should we do? This law didnt apply to David and his inherited wives because he was not Sauls son, but it did apply to Absalom. I say, then, walk by the Spirit and you will certainly not carry out the desire of the flesh. Stack Exchange network consists of 182 Q&A communities including Stack Overflow, the largest, most trusted online community for developers to learn, share their knowledge, and build their careers. Questioning Gods character is also dangerous and if your not careful outright arrogant making the assumption you know better than God. I honestly think the andro-centricity of many texts in the Bible is a reflection of the times they were written in. The focus is solely on David. In that way they were innocent. Devotion and a desire for truth (and not arrogance) are valid motivations for asking questions, including hard questions, such as the one I raise in this article. 3. The first child (unnamed in that account), a son conceived adulterously during Uriah's lifetime, had died seven days after birth. So I suspect, these difficult narratives have more to do with the perspective of the human authors than with the heart of God. Inheriting the wives does not mean that David necessarily slept with them. It was David that adds singers and musicians to worship God in the temple. (Online Source). I thought I was the only woman who had a problem with David being called a man after Gods heart! Answer The Bible does not mention King David's mother by name. And remember God told the Israelites not to get a king in the first place, that this type of thing was going to happen if they did. A slight technicality: God (YHWH) speaks at the beginning of Isaiah 19, but he is not speaking in 19:16. They may have just been looking to survive in a mans world. Yeah, but David did something much more horrible than any of the others. During this conversation Nathan speaks for God and explains, I gave your masters house to you and your masters wives into your arms (2 Sam. The idea that these 10 are pure innocents is not in the text. Several quotes by God calling women weak (when deriding the men for being afraid) or using metaphorical imagery of brutalizing and ultimately assaulting a woman to chastise Israel just desnt sit well with me. Among the examples given by Bullinger, only Exodus 4:21 has a similarity with 2 Samuel 12:11. God views us all through a lens of grace and is totally committed to our transformation into the likeness of Christ. The account is problematic because it appears contrived, a necessary insertion foreshadowing the episode of the violation of Davids concubines by Absalom (2 Sam 16:21-22). i liked you sensitivity, and your approach, its also true Davids time were different , the politics also was so different ..however, whenever i read the story in the bible, i always think my first impressions are always insufficient because first impressions are mine, human, did i really hear what the Bible is saying? Non-persons in a world of machine and biologically integrated intelligences. What I cant reconcile is Nathans prophecy where he claims to quote God as saying, I will take your wives and give them to another before your very eyes, and he will sleep with them in broad daylight (2 Samuel 12:11). Reflecting on motives, Ive murdered, tortured, kidnapped and bashed many people. He gave us free will. (Deuteronomy 28, and other passages of blessings and curses) The result was them being destroyed, being taken captive, being exiled and taken into slavery God did not cause this directly, but their actions and their rebellion against Gods protection and guidance bought it about since they chose to turn away from Him. If either is so, it makes this a merciful outcome. David's care of them on his return was the western equivalent of goving them an index linked pension for the rest of their lives. Because a kings chief wives and secondary wives [concubines] were such a symbol of his political connections and authority, a usurper could manifest his displacing of a reigning king by sleeping with members of the kings harem. What shall we do? Ahithophel said to Absalom, Go in to your father's concubines, whom he has left to keep the house, and all Israel will hear that you have made yourself a stench to your father, and the hands of all who are with you will be strengthened. So they pitched a tent for Absalom on the roof. The point about treating the women as widows is that David retired them (didnt have sex with them) but also continued to provide for them. God does NOT owe us anything, not even an explanation. Dr Fleming also notes that prophetic literature contains personifications of cities as women that imagine the military defeat of the city as the physical abuse and sexual violation of a woman (Isa 47:1-3; Jer 13:22; Ezek 16:35-41; 23:9-10, 22-29; Nah 3:5).. It causes angst when I kill funnel web spiders to keep my grandchildren safe. By clicking Accept all cookies, you agree Stack Exchange can store cookies on your device and disclose information in accordance with our Cookie Policy. It seems to me that all the bible heroes were ordinary people who had some great moments and some terrible moments during which they were shown to be perpetrators, because they could be with impunity. Bottom line is this, God has said that His ways are not ours, and His thoughts are not ours. (More in footnote 6 here.) Absalom had revolted against his father David and made himself king. (2 Samuel 13). Sometimes the Kings enemies were within his own harem. Im a bit thrown by your comment about Calvinism. David fled with all his kingdom except his concubines, KNOWING Absalom was,after his demise. The scriptural narratives are usually stripped to the bare minimum and I would see God in the concubines incident acting as in Romans 1: giving over people to the consequences of their actions there, only here I would read this as he not standing in the way of the horror he knows will follow events. I appreciate that about Him. @WoundedEgo: I don't believe she has enough rep to make a comment at this point. Didnt God care about them? Hi Christine, I was hoping you would comment. I interpret the words on the page, and if they record God as saying I will do xyz I take that as being the meaning and starting point of interpretation, regardless of theological persuasions. The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Not the answer you're looking for? Absaloms sin against the concubines was his own doing and one God will hold him to account for. Did God actually say and do that? Genesis 4:19 says that Lamech married two women. Makes it more understandable. One thing Im reasonably sure of is that, like Bathsheba, the concubines had no say in being left behind and no say in Ahithophel and Absaloms scheme. So Solomon gets the credit, but it was David that stored much if not most of the materials used in its building. I find it helpful to think of society in those biblical times as something a bit like the traditional societies sought by the Taliban or Isis, with the Old Testament simply describing the way things worked then, as well as their gradual evolution towards something a bit better for us all. However, Micaiah interprets the vision as meaning that the Lord has put a lying spirit into the mouth of these prophets of yours (2 Chron 18:22). 21:10-14). Anyway, I really would like to know what these verses are. And this is certainly the case in ancient Israel. Most of the blood shed was upon the enemies of His chosen people or Himself. . Thanks, Shirley. Based on this information, David may simply have retired his concubines from the active harem. Expression or not, its an unfounded insult that ignores many courageous women both in history and everyday life who are bold in protecting and providing for their families, both within and without the Western Christian bubble. (Source: StudyLight). Gods ways are higher than ours. The stories in 2 Samuel were written well after the fact, and the narrator probably assumed that what happened to the 10 concubines was Gods doing. Her story begins in 1 Samuel 1819. He didnt say that about Eve, did He? However, in 2 Samuel 16 Absalom is acting on the advice of Ahithophel. In the narrative, Absalom is presented as a scoundrel, but there is no hint of concern for the concubines who had no say in what was happening to them. Theology is basically answering such questions. Depending on what. The perspective that David was correctly following ToRaH is problematic; David's life was an endless, ignorant violation of ToRaH: murder, theft, deceit, adultery, failed parent, failed king. The Wives of David by James Tissot (1896-1902) (Tissot Drawing 310, slightly edited: Source), A Sympathetic Look at Bathsheba Im sure God is grieved and angered every time someone deliberately harms a fellow human being instead of helping them. The prophets are always helping widows and yelling at people for taking advantage of widows. And if that had not been enough, I would have given you much, much more. At least the woman in Genesis 3 did something to deserve what was coming. I also see these 10 women as martyr-like, and in the economy of the Kingdom of Heaven, these women laid down their lives. Did God use David in order to punish Israel? He had tremendous regard for Artemisia who was his ally and who had personally and valiantly led her navy in the battle at Salamis (480 BC). He may have been Bathshebas grandfather. The story gives no hint of Jebsute interference. "My mom said, 'I'm going to step away from the church.' The women still lived productive lives as harems were usually economic units where cloth was manufactured or other goods. We need to go back to the story of David and Bathsheba. Hence the statement in 2 Samuel 2:11. Starting the Prompt Design Site: A New Home in our Stack Exchange Neighborhood, Statement from SO: June 5, 2023 Moderator Action. I needed this! A helper supplies something to the helped that the helped are deficient in! But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. We're a little different from other sites. David was furious about what had happened to Tamar, but there appears to be no further consequences for Amnon. 4:5-7) and Davids rise to kingship, it would have been expected that he would extend his protection Sauls family, including his harem.[6]. David's favourite wife, Bathsheba, organized an intrigue in favour of her son Solomon. Unfortunately peoples sins always causes suffering for innocent bystanders. Gods promises and covenants are only for those to seek after His heart & follow His commands. It is a statement of FACT. Did Jesus aim to spare women from persecution. Rizpah's love and pietyand David's joining Rizpah in a memorial and burial of the bones of Saul and his son Jonathanmove God to end a three-year drought and famine in the region. In the sparse language of the text in question I do read the horror potentially inflicted on the concubines, but cannot imagine what it would mean in the context, or in the expectation of the women. P. Murray, Jr wmjr@jersey.net Psalm 51:5- "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." KJV This is a Hebrew poetic parallelism, with the second line of the verse saying the same thing as the first line in a slightly different way. It's important to first understand that it was prophesied that King David's wives would be violated in such a manner. All this was to fulfill Nathans prophetic curse of Davids dynasty (2 Sam 12:11-12). God knew what was going to happen and that it was an eye-for-an-eye style punishment for David. King David's rise to power cost one woman everything. Ive taken a closer look at Bathsheba, and at what happened to her, here. If something good or bad happened, it was because of the gods. Did UK hospital tell the police that a patient was not raped because the alleged attacker was transgender? So they were shut up until the day of their death, living as if in widowhood.2nd Samuel 20:3 (ESV). Reducing women to sex slaves and collecting them was, from the beginning, never congruent with GOD's ways. . His women would have been respected but would be kept; they were economically completely dependentt on the King. The harem was part of being king. Thank you so much for this reminder!!! I think its important to remember God is not endorsing Davids behaviour when He calls him a man after his own heart. I think him using patriarchal imagery would not hurt as much if there were more direct perspectives from women in their relationship with him. I also find it a bit humorous when God stated that the originally-created male of the species Adam really needed help badly. How should the story of David's concubines be read? We really have been introduced to the knowledge of good and evil. And David mourned greatly for him. When God says he will take Davids wives from him and give them to another he isnt authorising their mistreatment. Of the eight, five are mentioned only once. Abishag ( Hebrew: Avishag) was a beautiful young woman of Shunem chosen to be a helper and servant to King David in his old age. It meant that God gave that precious baby daughter TWICE as much undisturbed time with her mother before the new mom resumed relations with her husband again, with another possible pregnancy that could stop the mother being able to nurse her little baby girl. When he saw his son gaining power, David fled from Jerusalem with his entire household except for ten concubines. We can only speculate on their feelings and loyalties. His son Solomon expanded the empire that he built (1 Kings 4:21). Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. Im not a Bronze-Age Israelite, so I dont understand what you mean by being loyal to the Old Testament. Now Absalom and all the Israelites came to Jerusalem. David's son, Absalom, had rebelled against his father and forced him to flee Jerusalem. 64:6). Such a hint would have been very unwise considering the precarious state of palace politics. Many people have experienced it for themselves.

Italy, Switzerland France Itinerary, Grand Fond Beach St Barts, Assistant Project Controls Specialist Salary Burns And Mcdonnell, British School San Diego, Luxury Apartments Independence, Mo, War Effort Definition,