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And now an 800-year-old cathedral forced to close its doors for the last time. It was petty, vindictive and hateful. Clare I think you have a good point. Instead prophets are stoned (or told they have issues or shoving things down peoples throats or the like) and are rejected. And I would much rather be churchless with Christ and a gathering of 2 or 3 with him at the centre than be in a church building with so-called worship with Christ being absent. Fight on, me boys, and have fun! There are countless articles about how its assest rich cash poor, they cant find enough minsters how most people who go are over 60 ect. Im reblogging this because the Church in America is also in decline and we would do well to prayerfully consider the points made in this article for the Church in Scotland as I believe they are universal and applicable to us. For God is the story of human dreams and fears. Great use of the bible to correct points of error David! I have a few of my own but then I am neither a sociologist or religious so anything I say can likely be taken with a pinch of salt. We use cookies to improve your experience of using our website. He was just another victim of a brutal political power. Quite amusing Jamesif only we had the qisdom whose only frame of reference is themselves! Wahay! You make a telling comment about African churches in Scotland. I recall having a conversation with fellow dog walkers, being troubled about this, saying what it should all be about and sharing about the gospel of Jesus with them saying that all they see is arguments. Thank you for drawing this to broader attention. St Columba Church is a large, vibrant congregation on the south side of Ayr. You make a judgement based upon your feelings about one meeting and dismiss Bobs because he is a part of the ministry team that left. There was indeed a lot of sadness and hurt, my own included as shared. Thats a compliment. Robbo will probably claim the Bibles on his side, when he means Calvins interpretation of the Bible. Strangeif a Free Presbyterian was doing something like that, it would be all over the newspapers and opinion columns. God is the shape we try to make of our lives. These adverts enable local businesses to get in front of their target audience the local community. The Presbytery clerk tells us his reasons for decline. Calvinists are always no fun. Because of Covid one is now able to look at a wider variety of services online I decided just to choose one congregation at random (not a well known evangelical onenor a well known liberal). True, God will not judge us, but not for our deeds at all. Like I say, I wouldnt want to be a minster. About 60,000 worship in person on a Sunday - down from 88,000 pre-Covid. This site is part of Newsquest's audited local newspaper network. The Church of Scotland will have to close hundreds of churches in the coming years, the Kirk's trustees have warned as it stages its annual General Assembly. In 60 years, the Church of Scotland plummeted from 1.3 million to 300,000 members. The Bible says that God is loveit does not say that love is God. What happens when evangelicals disagree on what the truth is? Your definition of sacrifice as having nothing to do with sin is completely and diametrically opposed to the clear and plain teaching of Scripture in such passages as Leviticus and many, many more. Apparently not. What is more important to you the unity of the Kirk? IN 2015 Ten reasons why the Church of Scotland is in decline. How wrong you are! I think what you say David, about the Church of Scotland can be applied more widely to the church in Scotland. The Church of Scotland (the Kirk) is not State controlled, and neither the Scottish nor the Westminster Parliaments are involved in Kirk appointments.. Of course everyone is into love. Evangelical with passion for truth, concern about sin yet an tendency towards legalism. Churches sold off to become pubs, clubs and carpet shops. Infinite torment or infinite bliss. The Church of Scotland is theologically Presbyterian and has been the national church of the United Kingdom country since 1690, with its status guaranteed under the 1707 Act of Union of Scotland and England. Is it any wonder that in the worship of the triune God there are three strands to churches, evangelical, charismatic and liberal. Its the Im alright, Jack attitude combined with the laissez faire anything goes. Today I checked out St Columbas Website to see what he was currently preaching. You claim to know that Himmler is in heaven and Frank is in Hell when of course you know nothing of the sort. May God have mercy on us! We completely agree with you about Scott McKenna, but you should not judge, or appear to judge the whole denomination because of that. We should not demand too much of the Kirks General Assembly re this tale of woe after all , this situation seemingly requires a miracle which I doubt the members expect. It is far worse than any homosexual civil partnership. We have no minister, we have no long term place of gathering, we miss those who could not make the break but we do have much that is more important! There are numerous examples of this kind of exaggeration. Why would we expect God to bless a church which acts like that? I tried another, but its church prayer meeting had only 1 of its 50+ elders in attendance. In our weekly diets of public worship, through word, song, and periods of quiet, we seek to open ourselves to the Eternal. This is love; not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent His Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins (1 John 4:10). I am not sure who gave your correspondent this information or in what terms. This is no fault of one group of people or any decision-making body, but a trend that has not been reversed; we have lost members and Ministers of Word and Sacrament but not adjusted the number of charges, stated the report. Ive attached David Robertsons blog with the link to Scott McKennas blasphemous sermon. Well, the idea of there being no Final Judgement is and isnt unbiblical. (If they wanted it!). Reverend Grant Barclay - who was the last minister at St Kentigern's - said more lay people being need to be involved. He said: "Some churches will close but that will release a burden on many people, where there are only maybe 30 people there and of a generation that's now maybe finding it more difficult to manage. When we say love is God it all depends on what we mean by love. God is the Absolute, the Most Real, our Eternal Lover. That comment also exposes the weakness of the C of S which for far too long relied on artificially inflating its numbers by counting all those who were connected with its youth organisations as part of the church even though they seldom if ever came to church. I was also involved (to some extent) and saw little triumphalism and a lot of sadness and hurt. Taking one point that was made about sin being an obstacle to our evangelism. I wanted to make a comment on this particular part as, on the face of it, it shows the sort of bullying attitude we see from time to time. St Kentigern's in Kilmarnock, East Ayrshire, has been without a full-time minister for more than seven years. Ad libing at times. Measures are already underway across the country to merge congregations due to a shortage of ministers and falling income. Most of our school children have never heard of Jesus in any meaningful way. We all have assumptions and preconceptions that inform our view and we inevitably experience discomfort when encountering other views, but it is how our horizons are broadened. We thus end up making both a love and a god in our own image. And sadly evangelicals are far too often silent when it comes to their fellow evangelicals being mistreated and abused. About 45,000 people now worship online and 8,275 in "other ways". If you are dissatisfied with the response provided you can I was totally shocked (I recounted the details your debate with Scott at Mayfield) Claims that the church is dying and we will fill the empty church buildings. Readers comments: You are personally liable for the content of any comments you upload to this website, so please act responsibly. For the media and the wider world the issue causing people to leave at the moment is the issue of homosexuality and SSM. I was preaching on the first Sunday of 2020 in the church we now attend Seagate Ev Church, Troon and mentioned the following , On the first week of this year two incidents impacted me in totally opposite ways one utterly distressed me and the other inspired me, My wife Jean was reading in the Ayrshire Post She said heres a photo of the New minister at St Columbas The gathering of Kirk leaders - including new moderator Rt Rev Sally Foster-Fulton - begins on Saturday in Edinburgh against a continuing backdrop of falling membership and dwindling income. Thats the problem! Thanks for this insightful piece David. And this many of which you speak of as evangelical how many of the numerical growth are down to congregants leaving one church to join another and how many at there due to new converts? It was a desperate picture of decline and yet very few people in the church were prepared to face up to it. "Being a living, breathing, reforming and loving body of Christ in this place continues to be the mission and ministry of the Church of Scotland.". As well as the churches in the photos above all of which are now living and growing churches St Catherines Argyle Church left the C of S and was turned into Chalmers Church which is now thriving and sending Gospel workers all over Scotland.its not all decline! Although I recall one contact at 121 (the C of S administrative HQ) telling me that the C of S had no plans for growth, only managed decline. It was held in a traditional small town Anglican church and was stuffed full (probably for the first time in years) with firemen of every rank and age. Worshippers deserting in their thousands. John Hayward - May 21, 2022 9338 Christianity is declining in the UK. Surely if the congregation leaves the church then to expect to get the building is a bit optimistic? Your email address will not be published. There were 50,000 per year in the late 1950s. You are shepherds of the flock is it not your duty to protect them from the wolves? I dont. For You Scottish Daily Mail Why IS Scotland losing all faith in the Kirk? I hear what you say about little triumphalism from that you saw. The Archbishop, who has been in post since 2013, said the decline in church attendance was something that "personally, I count as failure". This inevitably means that it doesnt do a good enough job of attracting those it perhaps should be trying to attract. The Church of Scotland has lost more than half of its members since the year 2000, with the average age of worship attendees being 62, according to a recently released report. It may be the case that you can do a great deal of good within, but might it not also be the case that you could do even more outwith and be freer? The Church of Scotland has lost more than half of its members since the year 2000, with the average age of worship attendees being 62, according to a recently released report. CHURCH of Scotland membership has fallen by more than a third in the last decade, according to data from the General Assembly. The figure, which stood at just 40% in 2009, has risen by four per cent since the 2018 report. There is no criticism in this, we all have assumptions and preconceptions that we bring to any situation. If preaching inspires people with the Gospel, they will pay for Gospel work. The Church of Scotland has an outdated and quite deceiving system of claiming everyone within the bounds of the parish who are not Catholic as 'theirs'. https://broughtyferrypresbyterianchurch.org. The Church of Scotland has an outdated and quite deceiving system of claiming everyone within the bounds of the parish who are not Catholic as theirs. if the Kirk had kept its schools, i am sure the family-school-church bond would have stayed. im not a member of the Church of Scotland but the RC church, which is also in decline, though im not sure if its as bad. I left one CoS 50 years ago when, as a new Christian, the minister said he did not believe in the resurrection. And there are minister in the CofS that wont deny issues on it. I dont intend to go to war but I am very burdened for the state of the whole church of Christ in Scotland and so over the next few weeks as we lead up to the General Assemblies, I thought I would return to this subject (of which there have been other blogs!) Yes there are some excellent C of E churches and, in my experience, some of the best biblical teachers I have ever sat under have been evangelical Anglicans (e.g. The most important journey which we make in life is the inner journey. Sin was nowhere near it. Again how anyone who has read the Old Testament (try the book of Leviticus if you want to see an association between sacrifice and sin), the New Testament (the gospels, Romans, Hebrews) or any of the early Church Fathers, can argue that sin was nowhere near it, is almost incomprehensible. He said closing churches was a painful but necessary exercise. Your email address will not be published. But the Kirk is set to make up to 25million available over the next seven years for projects to grow local churches and create new congregations, despite the decline. 2013 In 2013 I wrote this response to Eric Alexanders letter saying why he was staying in the C of S (a pastoral letter which unbeknown to him was being used all over the C of S seeking to persuade evangelicals to stay in) https://theweeflea.com/2013/08/27/alexander-leaving-eric-alexander-on-leaving-the-church-of-scotland/, In 2014 we looked at the challenges facing the Church of Scotland https://theweeflea.com/2014/10/10/the-church-in-post-referendum-scotland/. Meanwhile the proportion of adults who say they belong to the Church of . The official membership of the Church of Scotland has gently declined by 16,000 in the course of a year. He reflected that, now in his 60s, life has been good to and for him, but the next generation must establish for itself who will shape their philosophy and beliefs.. In Melbourne I have observed at close quarters three churches where immigrant communities (Dinka, South African and Farsi) have joined existing churches and both have benefited. I think of the church that claimed over 2,000 members but if you went there on a Sunday you would be part of a crowd of 30. You seem somewhat confused. Of course there are other factors but a church that has turned away from the Word of God, other than to use it as a prop for our own thoughts, or as an historical artifact which needs to be explained away; is on the road to extinction. Bob, your claim is that there was no hype or triumphalism. Its not Biblical on their reading, and theyre within their rights to do so, just as Robbo is entitled to his view. On the other hand if we accept Gods self-revelation as love, then we have incredible good news. The report explained that the 2021 membership numbers represented 46.6% of what was reported in 2000, while the number of ministers reported last year was 60% of what it was in 2000. It would be pointless to list the few stories of hope and growth (which their thankfully are) order to offset the many of decline and decay. Although the denomination is the official national church of Scotland, it is not controlled by the U.K. government nor by the Scottish Parliament. With 1966 Evangelical Alliance with an opening speech by Martin Lloyd Jones regarding such as a schism and calling out evangelicals from their denominations with John Stott disagreeing and pointing to scripture about a remnant and following events form that is that not every bit of a nasty split as what has happened more recently in Glasgow? just keep on collecting people who agree with you. Two years later the C of S went to that place as we all including John knew it would. When Alberto and the vast majority of the congregation decided that they could no longer go along with the decisions of the C of S assembly they left to form Broughty Ferry Presbyterian Church which later on joined the Free Church and is still a living and developing church. And yet you defend it with whatabouterry , impressions you got from one meeting, and conversations with dog walkers! Which brings the topic right back to your above quote. One I heard preach about it being a case of palliative care that is the ministry there. Sadly the Church of England is in a similar situation despite the efforts of the AB of C Justin Welby who is an evangelical. OK so you think there has been unfairness and judgement based on feelings about one meeting and dismission being made because of someone being a ministry team. Or is symptomatic of what does not attract outsiders about Christian worship and community as claimed by Richard? Or the unity of the Church of Christ? (i cant recall how that panned out in the free church with the continuing but I would think the sentiment that the continuing should just be given the buildings would feel fairly unjust). His line Decline is most catastrophic amongst Christian denominations who have embraced secular liberalism. The, almost, final straw was when one of them said that he was unconcerned that the seance in the local community hall attracted more of a congregation than his church did, since we were all seeking the same thing. Lifes been good to me, now find your own way, is a million miles away from Jesuss I am the way, the truth and the life; or Knoxs Give me Scotland or I die! But as a CofS member, albeit attending the Free Church, I genuinely do not know how to respond: is leaving weakness, or staying complicity? Countries such as China and certain African countries not withstanding, Christianity in the West is most definitely on the decline quite rapidly in some places as well by the looks of it. This is the theology which is at the heart of the Bible. His son JJ is currently on Strictly Come Dancing and, as well as coming across as a really nice young man, he is doing well in the competition. The report also found that the vast majority of the Churchs ministers are over the age of 50, speculating that as many as half of them will retire within the next decade. The word God can be unhelpful because it implies an external, supernatural being when, we believe, the Transcendent is present in and through the material world. So Mark 5:26 (KJV) seems sadly true "The time has come for us to cast our bread upon the water before the last one of us finds it is time to switch off the lights and redistribute what is left to other charities with similar aims.". What losses did Russia suffer in the Wagner revolt? are you sure the decline doesnt stem from decades ago when the Church of Scotland turned over its schools to the state system and instead educated children in Sunday school? ive never heard of a former pupil of an RC school behave like that, i certainly tried to hold on to many of the values i learned at an RC school. Several years ago my wife and I were invited to attend a memorial service for two young firemen who had been killed in a tragic accident a year previously. You talk of the CofS being overtaken by these other churches many of which are evangelical.. Among major denominations, the Church of Scotland has seen the sharpest decline, with just 18% saying the belong to the Kirk. As a subscriber, you are shown 80% less display advertising when reading our articles. Less than 3% of the 50,000 babies born are baptised into the Church of Scotland. Melvyn Tinkler pointed out in your recent video how several of the fundamental tenets of the Christian faith were not even held by large swathes C of E clergy any more, who seem to have adopted a pick n mix style of Christianity. He said: "Some churches will close but that will release a burden on. And an insensitive triumphalism about this. He was not doing anything on the Cross. Those ads you do see are predominantly from local businesses promoting local services. After that, all the split-offs twisted the Bible to their own leaders interpretation, so now there are thousands of Bible Alone or Full Gospel denominational interpretations which all contradict each other, and so are not Alone or Full: but what Christian Smith has termed Pervasive Interpretive Pluralism. The problem is too few people. i did volunteer work for the RC church but when i left school although id given it up i still went to church. The jargon of church without wall, people of faith who do not attend. A classic example is the Rev. Maintaining ancient buildings sucks the energy of a congregation and leads some churches to make very unwise decisions, like hosting rock concerts in cathedrals for example, (I love modern music, but hearing Laura Marling summoning Sophia, Goddess of Power in front of the altar of York Minster cannot be pleasing to the Lord). Dr Chalmers said: "In my lifetime we have gone from a church of 1.3 million members to fewer than 300,000. In the Scottish Household Survey 2019 annual report, which Scotland's chief statistician published on Tuesday, 56% of adults reported that they did not belong to any religion. There will be some difficult conversations at the General Assembly in the coming days about the future of the Church of Scotland. Additionally, according to the supplementary report, giving has been gradually decreasing since 2019, after years of being largely stable despite the considerable decline in membership: In 2019, congregational income was 87 million ($107 million); for 2022, it is estimated as 73.4 million ($91 million), and by 2024 projected to be 68.7 million ($85 million). Immigrants are far more likely to be Christians than native Scots (I was told for example that there are 80 African churches in Scotland). St Columba welcomes you to join us as we begin a new stage of our pilgrimage. Doubtless St James will be sold on. We must invest seriously in new ventures, pioneer ministry and church planting. Without that good news we have no evangel. No No No No. Countdown has begun to end of Putin, say Kyiv officials, Belarus leader welcomes Wagner boss into exile, Zelensky: 'Act of terror' as missile strike kills eight, Van life is far from glamorous on LA's streets, China crackdown pushes LGBT groups into the shadows, The endangered languages that are fighting back. The tragic truth, with all respect, is that it is its own ministers who are bringing the house down around their own heads with the distortion and denial of the plain truths of Scripture. Why has the number of people going to the kirk dropped like a stone? If this pandemic has accomplished anything, it has shaken to the core, the masquerade of much posed as church and Christianity. It needs to long for his kingdom to come and proclaim his life to the spiritually lost and dead. Hello David, Who could in all conscience disagree with any part of what you say. We begin with (on) of the elephants in the room the continuing decline in the Church of Scotland. I was sat next to an elder as was becoming agitated. And I agree with what you say especially about my son! Follow TheWeeFlea.com on WordPress.com Christianity populated by Dominic Crosssan style ministers? That is very petty minded indeed. In reality Christ does offer to come in and sup with ushe does invite us to the wedding feast of the Lambhe does tell us to sit at his Supper, the Lords Supper, the covenantal meal. But sadly for the church there is not a manager to come in with a pep talk because for a large part God has left the building. The leaking roofs and rotting floors have provided the Church of Scotland with the distraction it has relied upon for years and continues to rely upon. 5) The C of S is in decline because it is confused about Faith Jesus never asked his followers to believe in a creed or in his divinity instead he called them to faith.. Its time to ditch substitutionaryatonement because it obscures the real meaning of faith a forgiveness which is done to usis one which leave us unchanged.. Here is yet another proof of the truth of the Bible. When I asked him why he replied, because it doesnt attract the young people. Will anyone go to Edinburgh Presbytery or the General Assembly seeking to deal with the false teaching of Rev McKenna? In my view this is an obstacle to our evangelism. The truth sets you free and love never fails but only if God is present in the midst of this. Should the doctor not tell you that you have cancer because its a bit hard? Well attended churches can more than afford to keep the property in good order.

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